Remember me on this computer
artprocess.com - Directions
Taking a renewed look at Art Process.
Hillel
13 Apr 08 16:48 IST

Enough time has passed and membership increased to warrant a renewed look at not only the direction of Art Process but its present reality and future potential. This is not to take away from what was its initial vision but to possibly bring it closer to that vision. An online virtual community of artists, that was the unknown factor when the site began. Was such a premise even a possibility? Well it is possible, friendships have been formed and continuing communications established, not to any great extent but enough to determine the possibilities and potential of the site. When AP first started there wasn't Saatchi Your Gallery, My Art Space or my Art Info, a few free art sites that I'm aware of now on the internet. Those plus all the other art sites available for fees or others I'm not aware of have changed the whole environment in the two years since I came aboard this one. At that time I was barely computer literate, being a subscriber to Modern Artist I was invited very early to the Saatchi site but it took me a couple of weeks and some help to learn enough to upload a few images and join. From that came an invitation to Art Process and the two others. Of all of them Art process continues to be the only one to capture my imagination. Yes, I utilize My Art Space as an alternative for the need to set up my own personal website, I'm probably too lazy, cheap or both to bother. My Art Space is excellent for that. This is the only site that fosters artist to artist communication and a sense of fellowship.

I've never thought that the internet would be of any use for either the selling of art or making the artist known. Just to make things very clear I'm fairly certain that art, at least the kind that I've always aspired to will never be a commodity on the web. Enough time has gone by now for most of us to be aware that the only people on all of the sites I've mentioned above are the very young, very failed or for all practical purposes never to be throng of artists that have always been and always will be the supporting cast of the very few recognized artists of renown who dominate the art world at any given time. The percentages don't change but I would estimate that for every artist who can barely eke out an insufficient living there are ten thousand losers who will never achieve that much. And for every artist of minor import or renown, that ratio would probably increase to just one out of every hundred thousand. Just take a look at Saatchi's your Gallery or My Art Space and see the thousands upon thousands of artists listed and certainly no artist of even slight establishment reputation will be found among them. As far as I'm concerned the internet only illustrates very graphically and very swiftly what has taken me practically a whole lifetime to understand and that is the near impossibility of breaking through the sheer number of aspirants. So the art world will continue as it always has to be a place of very few winners and a great number of losers abetted by a number who straddle the margins, being in related fields like teaching or working in museums and galleries while continuing to do their art for no other reason then their commitment and love of the whole process. Naturally art being art, there's always the the hope of the unexpected.

The lovely thing about this particular site is there was never an implied promise or expectation of attaining either fame or sales. Artist to artist communication was always the main point, a place for artists to meet and discuss and hopefully inspire or merely entertain each other was the sole idea. Like the other sites mentioned and like the internet generally it's completely democratic, anyone can join and participate, veteran professionals, students, those just starting out and amateurs alike. But unlike Saatchi or My Art Space there are no ongoing contests for best of the month and other competitions leading to shows and so forth, where usually an entry fee is necessary. To be fair I don't think the Saatchi site charges fees but it has perpetuated a culture of competition. Yes things did lead to one offline show but that was an exception to the rule and I think very unlikely to happen again. You'll notice that there are no ads or links to other sites here as there are on all the other sites. My Art Space which started about a year ago now offers premium pages. If I sign up now, I can do so for the bargain basement price of $50 for the year. Presumably they will be charging $100 yearly in the near future to thousands and thousands of artists. Well, you can do the arithmetic but when it comes right down to it, it's a business. The difference is that this site has never had anything to do with business. It's objective was quite clear from the very beginning, artist to artist communication, no more, no less. If you expect to attract dealers, make sales or do any kind of business whatsoever as a result of this site you're barking up the wrong tree.

Obviously as it's for free, a number of people, possibly the majority having nothing to lose, upload their profiles and portfolios and partake no further of the site's real value as a meeting place for artists. In the close to two years of my involvement, I've noticed quite a number of artists whose work and portfolios haven't changed an iota. Neither added to or subtracted from and never a word from the artists themselves in response to comments or for that matter direct questions. Perhaps they're dead or incommunicado from some other personal tragedy. My opinion is that if an onsite presence is inactive for a certain period of time, just as the banks do it, accounts should be confiscated, profiles and portfolios removed.

The bottom line, Art Process is not about so called networking for the sake of business but for true socializing and the exchange of ideas for the sake of comradeship and art. To my mind a much more valuable and realistic goal. More then any other site anywhere, this one is geared and designed exactly for that. It has through trial and error arrived at what I believe is a perfect format for communication and dialogue.

Over the last small while I've tried to give a few examples of communications other than the usual artwork comments and appreciations. There is now on the Forum Page listings, Artist's Cafe, a place to tell the stories of our lives as artists, not just to amuse each other but to learn from each other and share our experiences. Why not do reviews of artists' and museum shows in the various areas of the world where we live? That's quite a resource, peers from all over the world sharing what they see. It's a chance to receive art information, not through the eyes of art reporters or critics but from our fellow artists. Why not treat ourselves to the same kind of scrutiny and comparison through essays and interviews that our better known brothers and sisters receive in respectable art journals? I am recommending that the administration provide a new Forum listing titled "Artist to Artist Interviews". The topics will include interviews by members, with members they feel to be of interest. Although language continues to be a barrier, hopefully interviews by artists, clever enough to have a second or third tongue, will be able to introduce artists of one language group to artists of another. Yes it takes some commitment but with a staff of hundreds and correspondents from all over the world the possibilities are as endless as our imaginations and it's high time we made the most of what this site has to offer, not for fame or fortune but for ourselves

Abby
26 Apr 08 23:40 IST

Hi Hillel, I really liked your comments about artproccess and I think this is a great site. This is the only site that offers artists the opportunity to post works in progress. That's amazing, although I'm still getting over the nerves of showing unfinished works on the net. Never the less, I agree about the language barrier. It is amazing that we are able to have so many countries represented. I believe that Babelfish dot com has free downloadable software that will translate for us. That may be an option you could pass along.

Hillel
27 Apr 08 19:21 IST

Thanks for your comments Abby but I'm afraid that Babelfish doesn't work as advertised, I've tried it myself and found myself in the midst of a major international misunderstanding and incident.

Sandra
03 Jun 08 08:40 IST

Dear All,
I must reply to this not only because I've been part of this website and I like it very much but because from this website I've gotten so much. First, no matter what some artists say I think the show organized in Sicily was a great experience, from that show I met with Federico Mazza whom is my boyfriend now. I could say that Art Process allow me a window for professional contacts as I have continued working in Sicily thanks to the people I met there and for personal matters since I have made good friends through it and the person i love.
I think what Hillel says is very true and I wouldn't know how to say it better, my comment can only be as an artist, that feels very happy and thankfull for this space where to network, share and exchange opinions, it is very authenthic and that is something I appreciate a lot these days. I have kept updating my information but it is true I've never been a big forum contributor so on that I do declare my self guilty !!! but i think we can all refresh a bit content and start to give it a bit more of an active content without making JP use his time much for it.
For JP I think he has been wonderful in every sense and the least we could do is to someway save this wonderful space and show him that we do care for all he has put up for artists.
All my best for you
sandra

ps: I'll translate in italian if needed (babelfish is something to AVOID)

Maria
03 Jun 08 09:08 IST

english
MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD!
DO YOU CARE WHETHER OR NOT ARTPROCESS CONTINUES TO EXIST?

italiano
FATEVI SENTIRE
VI INTERESSA CHE ARTPROCESS CONTINUA AD ESISTERE O NO?



ENGLISH
(on Sunday, May 1, John Paul Delaney posted this comment.

"The employers for whom I spend my time figuratively washing dishes, have decided yet again it's time to turn everything upside down (i.e. reorganize) and so even though I'm still employed in a day job, I've been assigned to do duties completely different to what I've become used to. Unfortunately, I know next-to-nothing about what I'm expected to do now, therefore I see some months of re-adjustment as I learn to do what's now expected of me.
This means I'll have little or no time to spend working on ArtProcess - which disappoints me somewhat, as I see the site being used less and less, and it probably needs some dedicated development to attract back some interesting contributors.
Hillel, I always remember your line of this being a loser activity, but you still decided it was worth adding a contribution or two to help out. In the end, you turned out to be the mainstay of the site. Right now I wonder if it's really worthwhile pushing this website along any more, as in the end it's not attracted much interest amongst our fellow artists out there. As you mention, much better sites for artist exposure exist now, and so it's probably time to call it a day for the artprocess project, and put it down to yet another loser adventure, interesting as it was, while it lasted?"


ITALIANO
Domenica 1 Maggio, John Paul Delaney a scritto questo commento.

“I miei datori di lavoro per I quali in maniera figurativa sto lavando piatti, hanno deciso che fosse ora di fare tutto sotto sopra (cioe’ riorganizare) e quindi mentre ho ancora un lavoro di mattina, mi hanno assegnato compiti completamente diversi da quelli che sono abituato di svolgere. Sfortunatamente, so pocco o niente di cio che dovro’ fare adesso, quindi vedo qualche mese di adattamento per imparare a fare quello che si aspetta da me.
Questo significa che avro’ pocco se non proprio no tempo per lavorare su ArtProcess – fatto che mi rende un po deluso, visto che il sito viene usato sempre meno, e che probabilmente richiede uno svilupo piu dedicato per riattirare alcuni contribuenti interessanti.
Hillel, ricordo sempre le tue parole che questa e’ un’ attivita’ perdente, ma avevi deciso lo stesso che valeva la pena di dare un contributo o due per aiutare. Alla fine, sei diventato la figura principale del sito. Adesso mi domando se davvero vale la pena di mandare avanti questo sito web, visto che alla fine non ha attirato tanto interesse dalla parte di artisti la fuori. Come dici, esistono siti migliori per la promotione di artisti, quindi forse e’ giunto il momento di chiudere bottega per il progetto ArtProcess e catalogarlo come un’ altra avventura falimentare, interessante finche’ e’ durata?”


ANSWER / RISPOSTA
Personally we would be saddened to see the demise of this site, we still think ArtProcess has some kind of potential for dialogue that's unique but the responsibility for providing content has always been its members' and it seems we haven’t met our expectations in that regard. We realize that JP can't do it alone and he has other commitments but we're prepared to contribute what we can.

If you would like to see this site carry on then make your opinion known by responding with a, "Yes!" "No!" or "I don't care!", and if you care to, an explanation or opinion. The fate of ArtProcess is in your hands.

MARIA & HILLEL


ITALIANO
Personalmente, ci dispiacerebbe molto vedere questo sito crollare. Crediamo ancora che ArtProcess ha una potenzialita’ unica per creare dialogo ma la responsabilita’ del contenuto e’ sempre stata dei suoi membri e sembra che non siamo stati all’ altezza delle aspettative riguardo questo. Comprendiamo che JP non puo fare tutto da solo e che ha altri impegni ma siamo pronti a contribuire quello che possiamo.

Se vorreste vedere questo sito andare avanti, fatte sapere la vostra opinione rispondendo con un “Si!” “No!” o “Non mi interessa”, e se volete agiungete la vostra spiegazione. Il destino di ArtProcess e’ nelle vostre mani.

Maria & Hillel

Hanjo
03 Jun 08 09:33 IST

Well, I have seen or being a member to some other websites showing art, like the Saatchi site, Artmesh or Artrewiev etc. but NO ONE OF THEM can keep pace with Artprocess in terms of communication. As Sandra has pointed out artprocess initiated many very close friendships and no one of those participating will ever forget this wonderful gathering in Trapani in 2007.
Well, it is true, me too fell more and more silent recently for I have to struggle with my art and I am a painter and not a writer, particulary not in English. But as one can see from the „Authoritative Voices“ list it’s only a small amount of the members who really use the communication tools. And if one of them fells silent it immediately has a bad effect to the site. So I have to call myself to discipline and continue commenting.
Let’s keep Artprocess alive, this wonderful site with its features no other site has like the fantastic „studio log“ section which at the moment is only used by Titus and Hillel as far as I know.
It’s true that at the moment there is not so much activity on the site. But on the other hand I have the feeling that the activity comes in waves. Sometimes there is more sometimes there is less. Or maybe we are spoiled with the Trapani preparation time when the site was humming with activity. So let’s increase our activity and staying patient at the same time and not as we say in German empty the tub with the child in it.
best Regards Hanjo

Federico
03 Jun 08 10:54 IST

Dear John, I might be a bit slow to comunicate things, I would like to tell you that artprocess for me has been a very important experience, for the love of art and life, I've rediscovered  values and forgotten passions by meeting all of you artists. I'm proud of being part of art process because I've met the people behind, generous people like you, interesting and stimulating, beatiful people that love art unconditionally. I think it is terrible to take away Art Process with all the "garbage" around. I would be happy to help you taking are of the website, graphically and technically if you won't have the time anymore, maybe Sandra can also help with promotion and good new ideas. I would love to meet you soon, after 18:30 where are you? in Rome? let's see each other I would love to talk to you, best Federico


ITALIANO:
Ciao John, io forse sono un pò lento a comunicare le cose, io vorrei dirti che Art process Trapani per me è stata un esperienza importantissima, per l'amore prima dell'arte poi della vita, ho riscoperto dei valori e delle passioni dimenticate da tempo conoscendo tutti voi Artisti. Io sono fiero di far parte di Art process perchè ho conosciuto le persone che ci sono dietro, persone generose come te, interessanti, stimolanti, belle persone che amano l'Arte senza freni inibitori.
Mi sembra terribile levare via Art process dalla retre, con tanta spazzature che c'è. Io vorrei propormi per riattivare Art process, darti una mano per gestirlo se tu non avrai più il tempo, coinvolgerei anche Sandra per nuove idee ed energie positive, io vorrei incontrarti al più presto dopo le 18,30 dove sei? a Roma? vediamoci, vorrei parlare con te dopo tuttto questo tempo! con sincero affetto, Federico Mazza

karen
03 Jun 08 15:37 IST

Estoy absolutamente de acuerdo con todos vosotros, sería una pena dejar morir Artprocess, es una web distinta, con otro tempo, otro nivel de comunicación, mas profundo y personal, menos superficial. Es cierto que no todos han participado, y la lengua es una de tantas razones por las que creo que otros artistas, no escriben con asiduidad, y de ahí que haga este comentario en español. Es difícil comentar una obra de otro artista, como para encima tener que hacerlo en una lengua que no es la tuya. Todos los días antes de irme a las 8.15 de la mañana echo una ojeada a la web, y leo a Hillel o a Maria, o a JP, o a cualquiera que haya escrito en ese momento. Por ArtProcess conocí y he mantenido un pequeño grupo de buenos amigos, que de una manera u otra han alimentado y enriquecido mi vida. Me he asomado por detras del hombro de Hillel cuando miraba los garabatos de su amigo, ya muerto, y he compartido los esfuerzos de Maria autoretratándose a golpe de luz y materia, he leído con interés los textos de Hillary, y he observado con curiosidad los arrebatos de color de David, o los descubrimientos de JP al caérsele una estatua. He conocido Trapani , lo que considero un lujo para el alma, y para la vista. Y me precio de haberme traído algún amigo siciliano que me parece ya como si le conociera de toda la vida, y para toda la vida. Es cierto que no he escrito tanto, ni tan a menudo como Hillel, por ejemplo. Primero por que no escribo de forma tan amena, aquello que tenga que decir está en mis pinturas, está todo allì, si uno quiere leerlo. Segundo porque escribir lleva tiempo, y este año ha sido un poco complicado para mí. Así y todo siempre he dejado patente mi intención de ayudar en todo lo que me fuera posible en el funcionamiento de la web. Así que dejo aquí también mi voto de que no se deje morir algo que está en el fondo muy vivo, y reitero mi oferta de ayudar en lo que pueda para que siga funcionando. Creo J.Paul que has hecho algo diferente quizá porque tu enfoque de lo que son las relaciones entre artistas es diferente y en él no entran competitividades, ni concursos, ni niveles, sólo personas que buscan y a veces y en el mejor de los casos, se encuentran y comparten, así que creo que puedes estar orgulloso. Mantengamos esta web latiendo , entre todos.


I wrote my comment in spanish but in a few words it says that I agree absolutely with all of you, it would be a pity to let Artprocess dye, it is a different web, it has a different tempo. There is a much more personal and deep level of communication between artists. It is true that not everyone has participated, and I think the language is the main reason for this. If writing a comment is complicated let alone doing it in a language that is not your own. Thanks to ArtProcess I've also met some very good friends that have expanded and enriched my life, and I lived Trapani, an experience that I will never forget. I have shared the process of doing an artwork with many different artists, and learned from it. This is unique indeed. So I owe this web a lot, and I wouldn't want it to dissapear. If I can do anything to help it go on, please count on me, I think it is worth it. Let's keep it alive with our voices.

antonio
03 Jun 08 16:41 IST

Caro JP, togliere artprocess sarebbe un delitto contro l'umanità. capisco che forse diventi sempre più impegnativo lavorarci e che tu hai anche un lavoro, una famiglia.... però ArtProcess è un patrimonio di tutti, anche di chi non si occupa attivamente di arte ma ne sente la necessità. L'esperienza di Trapani credo che sia stata meravigliosa e che sia stata assolutamente trasversale al sistema ( artistico). Fin dall'anizio artprocess ha avuto una grande partecipazione e tante persone hanno collaborato e contribuito con i loro interventi e le loro opere, per difendere delle parole che dovrebbero renderci migliori : comunicazione e cultura. questo progetto è la testimonianza che ognuno di noi può dare un contributo e insieme fare la differenza. Non è un pensiero romantico, ma un dato di fatto. ArtProcess è un progetto straordinario che può e dovrebbe diventare ordinario.

Hillel
04 Jun 08 15:45 IST

Well, it seems we're all in agreement, I certainly can't argue with anything that's been said here and that even includes my own statements. I think Frederico's very generous offer of help could be very beneficial. We certainly haven't heard from everyone and once again I encourage them to make their opinion known. But the general consensus seems to be that ArtProcess is beloved and recognized by its member artists as being something rather special, as is its founder and the moving spirit behind the whole thing.

Yes there are other sites now for exposure and social networking but we all know this one is the real deal, the one with pure heart and intent. JP, I know you're seeing our words here. We want AP to continue and people are ready to help and make a more concerted contribution of time and effort. The only issue that hasn't come up is the cost of keeping it running and I know you're allergic to any talk of capitalizing from this site. We also know that you bear the whole brunt of bearing whatever the economic expenses have and continue to be. You're a dedicated free software GNU kind of guy. Please remember that all of them including Wikipedia don't turn down donations. I've spoken to enough members to know that they would not be averse to the idea of a non mandatory donation. Perhaps a suggested small annual fee of some kind on a strictly voluntary basis.

JP
05 Jun 08 24:14 IST

Well... I sure was surprised to see all those messages.
Actually, I don't do any work on the site (other than the odd bugfix) - all the work was done at the beginning, so that it would continue on it's own without me having to do any regular maintenance.
I was at the point of starting on a new set of functionality for a great suggestion of Hillel's who wants a new artist-to-artist interview section with the possibility to upload images, and make modifications before publishing the completed interview. I'm very interested to do this, only it will take some time to code in a way that it becomes a do-it-yourself, user-driven, interview application (i.e. I don't have to do any work once it's complete).
I also want to setup a proper "publicize your exhibition" section.
I had been wondering if there's any point in doing this at all as I felt you were all losing interest in the project. Your response tells me otherwise - so artprocess will live to fight another day. Thanks for the support!
There's only a problem of having to wait until my daytime job eases off a little so I can concentrate on the interviews development.
As far as money is concerned - most of you probably know the artprocess mantra by now - the artist shouldn't pay, as s/he pays so much (in sweat and tears) already, just by doing the artwork s/he does.
As long as I'm washing the dishes, that pays the bill.
And I'll be very happy to take up Federico's great offer - as you can see, we badly need a decent graphic designer!
Thanks always for your ongoing contributions of communication and artworks - you, ladies and gentlemen, are the soul of artprocess, and as long as you consider it worth continuing, the site will be there for you.

Kind Regards.
/j-p.

Arnold
05 Jun 08 10:11 IST

It would be a shame to lose a site such as this! Up the AP!

Sandra
06 Jun 08 09:21 IST

Dear JP
Thanks for your answer, I think we are all reliefed.
Best
Sandra

Federico
06 Jun 08 10:08 IST

Weel Jp
come on! contact me please!

iniziamo a rispolverare Artprocess! mi chiami quando vuoi? o ti posso chiamare io? nel weekend? Io sono un uomo operativo, non mi piace molto parlare dei problemi, mi piace risolverli!

JP
06 Jun 08 19:53 IST

Scusa Fede... sono immerso in un nuovo progetto di lavapiattista e non ho un attimo di fare niente neanche durante il weekend. Si tratta di una tecnologia di cui non so assolutamente niente ma devo portare delle soluzioni in tempo breve (cazzo - perchè mi trovo sempre in queste situazioni assurde? Voglio solo dipingere). Sarà un'estate dedicata ai piatti purtroppo.
Appena ho un po' di tempo libero per dedicarmi all'AP, to faccio uno squillo.
Grazie sempre per la tua offerta di aiuto - è ben accettato ma non vorrei sprecarla, quindi aspetto un momento quando siamo tutte e due liberi e possiamo progettare qualcosa interessante insieme.
Nel fratempo vedo che stai facendo grandi passi in avanti con le tue opere - ripeto i miei complimenti e spero che continuarai sempre concentrato come sei.
Un abbraccio.
/j-p.

vito maria
07 Jun 08 16:38 IST

Caro JP, apro con la traduzione di un verso di uan canzone di Bob Dylan:" ho visto tempi oscuri dove non riuscivo a trovare un amico. Ho visto fuoco, ho visto pioggia". Pensare di chiudere Artprocess, una libera comunità di liberi artisti, di questi tempi oscuri, è paragonabile alla sensazione di fuoco e di pioggia che spesso brucia e bagna le nostre esistenze.
Il sottoscritto, pur essendo tra i sottoscrittori di Artprocess, ha poco contribuito al dibbattito sul sito, e per questo chiedo scusa. Ma devo confessare che ho trascorso molto tempo a conoscere gli artisti iscritti al sito,ed è stato un bel giro attorno al mondo.
Fa la tua legittima stanchezza non interrompa questa piccola comunità virtuale (e non) ciascuno con le proprie competenze, potrà animare e aggiornare il sito mentre termini di...lavare i piatti... e puttosto ti ricordo che a casa mia c'è sempre un posto per te. tuo
vmm

Maria
02 May 09 16:33 IST

I would really like to see Patricia's tile instalation better. Maybe consideration should be given to the studio log image size. Especially since we usually upload views of studios or spaces and not just close ups of works. J.P. I hope I am not putting presure.

Hanjo
02 May 09 17:04 IST

Patricia, this is a brilliant project! Congratulations! So in a way the green line finally becomes threedimensional with all the stories it transports. As you know I always thought the green lines to be a novel difficult to read but trying is worth it. Thanks for sharing your experience.

Hillel
27 Nov 09 20:46 GMT

Please see the AP link below where this topic first came up, I think this Forum location is more appropriate if any more conversation is to take place.

LINK

JP's not really talking about criticism, sorry if I left that impression. He's well aware that everybody has their own take, different strokes for different folks and all that. What he's interested in is knowing what's going on in artists' minds and by what process, successful or not, are they trying to reach that wee glimmer of something or other that initiated their quest in the first palace.

All I'm saying is that right now the only place to do that on this site is the Studio Log but seldom will you get an artist able to do a whole lengthy monologue about their own process all on their own. I have seen that when prodded with questions as in an interview they can be quite forthcoming.

If this is not to be just another artist showcase site (there are a great many and much better able than this one for that purpose) than an interactive Studio Log might be the way to do it. i.e. Trade off much of the individual showcasing for the ability to intercommunicate on the Studio Log pages.

Ok now you can all beat up on me.

JP
28 Nov 09 07:58 GMT

OK Hillel et al, thanks for the prod. I'd better start up some activity again at ap or the Gang Of Four who *are artprocess* will get totally fed up and move off somewhere else. Next week, I'll start taking a look at re-working the SLOG. It was done in a hurry, and has lots of rough edges about it, and I'll add the possibility to comment as you say. Once I get into rhythm I'll take on other suggested changes that have come up in the past. I'm a bit rusty now with this coding work, so please continue to be impatient and keep on bitching while I try to pick up where I left off.

I've said this before elsewhere and I'll bore you all again by repeating, that for me at least, the idea of ap was founded on my experience many years ago at art school where the real learning experience was generated by the students themselves. I learned the validity of how different approaches to working could resolve equally well shared concerns, with lots of discussion, argument, and humour thrown in for good measure. More importantly, I saw that this is how a group comes together and begins to create a collective identity (e.g. overheard conversations "Have you seen what they're doing down in 2nd year painting?").
Fast-forward 25 years later and you've got a bum painter isolated in a foreign country who fails to interest anyone with what he's making, and occasionally thinks back to when the process of trying to produce art was much more vital, and shared communication helped to keep research and exploration moving on.
I imagined there must be many more people out there in similar situations and so ap was to be a place where that communication could begin again, having the ultimate goal of allowing a collective identity come into being. If, and whenever that happens, the group voice will be a lot stronger than the individual and, managed well, could begin to attract attention within the art world. At that point, we could present a convincing case for art event managers, gallerists etc. to invest in our work and to finance our shows.
We're nowhere near that point now. Nevertheless, there's a faint glimmer of hope still being kept alive by those four who are the core of ap, and so I suppose it's only right that I get off my fat ass now to contribute my part too.

Maria
28 Nov 09 21:06 GMT

Good, I am glad to hear that the SLOG is going to get better. Now I don't know about how much data can this site handle, but it would be really good to have larger images. An maybe a little more tidy layout of the projects together. When it started, for the Trapani purposes, one couldn't have imagined there would be so many projects and now the drop down list looks too long and messy. One more thing is that projects get in alphabetical order instead of time of publishing order, which makes it difficult to follow one's process. Some times when I go through my slog I think of deleting some stuff but then I don't because some of it is our history.

On a second thought, reorganizing just the slog lets unsolved the problem of having this so well cocneived artprocess site crowded with people who happened to through some paint on a piece of paper once in their lives and satisfy their vanity by putting it on the web, like is the case in most free online galleries, but are no artists nor do they aspire to interact with one. I don't know how it could be put in practice but wouldn't it be better if the whole site was not enother gallery but a big studio log instead? Wouldn't that discourage those who do not intend to interact in the first place to waste site space and wouldn't it make it easier to show the site's identity at fist glance?

Hillel
28 Nov 09 23:35 GMT

Not exactly sure what SLOG means in this context but what I was trying to get at Maria and perhaps I wasn't clear was to trade off the gallery aspect of this site and concentrate ONLY on the Studio Log aspect. Just leave 10 or so examples of an artists portfolio not an alternative personal website. I've always been personally reluctant to edit or delete any images in my "portfolio" particularly if there have been any "comments" because I know the hard work that was entailed to extract those comments. But in order to separate this site from others that aspect would more than likely have to go.

Other sites do the gallery thing much better than this one, huge unlimited image file upload and so on. So why not just get rid of the dilettantes, rob them of just another place to upload images and put all the AP resources towards the Studio Logs. In other words put the emphasis on the "Process" as opposed to the resulting "Art". JP might disagree and I'm sure these changes probably entail a huge toll of labour on his part but I think given the online options that going this route might be more faithful to his initial vision.

JP
29 Nov 09 17:10 GMT

Gosh Hillel.. I sure hope I don't end up in your classification of dilettantes. I'm just a bum painter hoping to get down into the painting hole sometime soon but don't have the balls to tell the world to f* Off because what I do is so much more important than washing the dishes so the family can get by today. I post some images of my work hoping there'll be some bigtime moneyed collector who'll recognize the true worth of what I do. The thing I don't get is that no bigtime collector will ever set foot in ap.
As it's the major battle of my life just to *BE* in the painting hole (who here can concur with this), I surely can't be asked to willingly spend literally days fiddling with these horrible computer things as a means of communciation with my fellow artists.
Nevertheless, as you say, times have moved on. Happily, there is no real need for ap anymore - today artists have ample opportunities to exhibit their work on the web, and in far better contexts.
Nevertheless, coming back to your argument, as a reminder the original precepts of ap were:

1) Anyone who says they are an artist is an artist.
2) Artists should never be asked to pay money.

So be it for artprocess.net.

Coming back to your valid point, one day I want to re-open the site artprocess.com (currently not available) to artists from artprocess.net who agree to be selected artists. It'll be a sort of "BEST OF AP" from my point of view. I think there we may be able to develop your ideas for a more professional group, and collectively build something of consequence to reflect serious artists with serious ambitions.

Just bear with me, and give me the time to fix ap.net so it works a little better for all, then we'll move on to something new that the Gang Of Four (if they agree) and I can develop together from a concept and functional point of view.

Maria
30 Nov 09 12:40 GMT

To me SLOG is short for Studio Log. I hope it doesn't mean anything else in English. I'd better look it up...
Yes, Hillel, I understand what you are talking about and I am at the same wave length.

JP, to begin with, you are already putting a great amount of your time and energy on this project and I don't think anyone here expects you to perform miracles in one day. We can all plan this slowly and it will be ready when it will.

On the other hand, if you ask me not everyone who says to be an artist is one. And this is one of the reasons why "big time collectors" do not waste their precious money making time browsing through all those existing virtual galleries, full of Sunday painters and people with no real artistic vision or ambition.
Thinking of this another matter arises. What is meant by a "group" of artists?
a) Are we talking about a group of people who form a "group" based on the mare fact that they are artists? In this case this “group” has no identity and in my opinion there isn’t any specific reason why it should be called a group and why should anyone pay any particular attention to it.
b) Is it about a group of people who may have different ideas on art making but that is of no importance since what they aspire to is to get their forces together only in order to get into the art market? Honestly, if I were anywhere in the art dealing business, I wouldn’t pay much attention to such a group.
c) Or are we talking about a group of people who have in common specific artistic ideas that distinguish their work? A group like let’s say “the cubists” or “the fauves” or “the surrealists” etc. In that case we might be getting somewhere. Of course in that sense in Art Process there are a few different disciplines so we cannot be talking about one group but a few subgroups within a larger one, which I personally find very interesting and might be interesting also to potential art lovers who browse the net, if there could be found a way to distinguish these subgroups as if in a big house with different studio-rooms, where work and discussion take place and then have occasional inter-room communication too.

If this artists’ community project were not on line and it were done in some local dimension, some people would start a group and there would be people who would enter the group because of some real intellectual reason, without which it wouldn’t have crossed their minds to get anywhere near it in the first place.
Now these are some thoughts of mine. I am going to work for the next three precious free hours I have left now. Otherwise there would be nothing to talk about anyway.

JP
01 Dec 09 06:15 GMT

Oops Maria, I expressed myself badly. I meant to take the position of any ol'artist out there who's battling against the stuff of living just to get to her/his studio every now and then. Sometimes it's hard to be a judge when they don't have the time, inclination, or ability to actually jump into the communication thing, and all they have is hope for the big-moneyed collector :o) !
Personally, I've hardly done anything with ap for over two years now, though I suppose it's time to start up again.
Your questions on the meaning of group are very pertinent. I see the GoF (Gang Of Four), with others such as Fotini and Arnold for example, that might be convinced to work together in some way. A thread of bold figurative work and a desire for discussion seem to unite them in some way.
That's something to think about for the future, and would come under your c) category. I'm quite interested in b) however. Hopeless causes attract me. My goal would be to help create a group that would become interesting to the art market. All we need is a little cynicism, strong ideas, and good marketing - something we're quite capable of I believe.

I hope you enjoyed your remaining three hours of work. To my mind, you are the one at ap making most advances with your art. Please continue to post your progress, and I'll start soon to look at making the slog interactive. ciao.

Tony
06 Dec 09 20:29 GMT

The "real" artist ? I think it was Robert Hughes who put down Basquiat as talentless by virtue of having bye passed the art school system. A friend of mine pointed out that over 30,000 grads exit that system each year but to what effect. Is it all attitude then ?
It seems to me that the Gof4 have already mentally jumped from the good ship A.P. As figure painters of varying abilities with a mutual hierarchy a flight to reasoning text based dialogue is irrestible. However as an outsider loner of long standing my instinct is to abhor elite groupings. But detaching from personal beliefs i have to conceed that most human endeavour sets standards for itself. So what if the despised Sunday painters recognise their efforts for the often limp copy Art that they are yet feel inspired to improve while being challanged by the company of their "betters".

Maria
08 Dec 09 23:07 GMT

No, Tony you have missed the point. Where has anyone said that “real artist” and “art school” have any sort of “necessary condition” relationship? Did you hear anyone here talking about Master in Arts degrees? No. It is a common place that Picasso had been almost thrown out of several Art Schools.

What I have been talking about is people for whom art making is a way of life not a profession certified by a diploma. And these are people who dream to do nothing but art, regardless the fact that they may have not succeeded in doing so just yet, not because it is fashionable or because they can get the girl in a cocktail party while talking fancy, but because they are bursting with it.

Now, I must admit that I haven’t fully understood what you mean in the second part of your comment, so I can’t provide an answer to that. However I would like to point out that the "Gang of Four" title was given to Kagan, Schmidt, Kruse and myself arbitrarily and regardless the friendship between us four I do not quite identify. I think it is an unfair, untrue simplification of what has been going on here in AP the past three years.

Hillel
10 Dec 09 21:06 GMT

It's not too difficult to become part of the AP "elite", all you need do is write the odd word here or there, a comment, an observation or some random thought. This will immediately establish you as a loudmouthed opinionated jackass or as most everyone else would say "he / she's part of the AP elite".

Abhor elite groupings or not but just a few more comments Tony and you yourself will have joined the ELITE.

karen
11 Dec 09 08:08 GMT

The whole idea of an elite is ridiculous, even the idea of creating an artistic group out of
four persons that work in different ways, in far away countries with different goals is strange. As Hillel says it is just a question of participating more often in this web site. Nothing to do with elites or degrees or anything else.
Solitary painters, not necessarily successful, that every now and then like to talk with someone else with similar interests, share difficulties or low creative moments. I have used this web in that sense, at the end of a day, as one shares a coffee with another friend, I came here to see what was being said or showed. I had more time then, and the time I had, I could dedicate to painting, now I have little to show here if there is anything, (and I find it so funny to be talked of, like being part of an elite!!) but nevertheless I check it every day, for it is the only web in which sometimes you can read an honest and interesting comment. “sometimes”. There have been other members who we all were interested in reading too, like Arnold for example, who for some reason or other aren’t mentioned, and should be.
So in the end this is like an evening group meeting, virtual meeting, in some “café” of who knows where, in which sometimes you listen, sometimes you talk, sometimes you upload your work with pride and sometimes you just watch the rest of the world create while you ask yourself if you have anything worth saying or showing .

XXS
11 Dec 09 13:52 GMT

To define what is a “real” artist is very difficult. More than to be one. I am often in contact with teachers and students of Fine Arts, amateur and Sunday painters, and I could not say which one is an artist more than the others. Even I'm not sure to be one. The word “artist” refers to an ideal, and in that sense are artist those who wish to be one. But how do you measure that?!

There is a precept from the “hacker world”, the inventors of Internet, which says that someone will be called “hacker” when other hackers call her so.

Therefore, artists, comment my pictures and make me an artist, please, and then get me out of the AP!

Tony
11 Dec 09 17:39 GMT

wow Hillel if only i had realised it was this easy to join the elite i would have opened my big mouth long ago.....

Hillel
11 Dec 09 18:02 GMT

See there ain't nothin' to it, welcome to the elite. It's quite a grand feeling isn't it, almost overwhelming and believe it or not this is just the beginning. Congratulations!